Morrowind talk:Blunt Weapons

Explanation

(Discussion originally posted at [[Morrowind talk:Base Weapons/Blunt]])

To explain in more detail why I created this subpage....

Basically, we were having all of the classic redundancy problems that come with having two nearly identical (and at one time truly identical) set of tables. Improvements made to the tables on the Base Weapons page (changing to in-game enchantment values, sortable tables, adding icons) weren't being made to the version on the Morrowind:Blunt Weapon#Blunt Weapons skill page -- although, presumably, those improvements would be just as useful on the skills page. Even more problematic, two sets of the tables meant that the chances of errors were twice as high, and error fixes were only being made in one place. Earlier, an anon IP edit pointed out that the Blunt Weapons page was using CS values for enchantments, even though a decision was made months ago to change all pages to use in-game values. Then, when scanning through what had happened, I noticed an error in the Chitin Club's enchantment on the Base Weapons page -- that rpeh had fixed when updating the skill page, but with two separate pages the fix wasn't automatically reflected on the Base Weapons page.

My first thought was to keep the tables on the skill page, then transclude the skill page onto the Base Weapons page. However, the Base Weapons page is already somewhat of a beast for the server to process. Forcing the Base Weapons page to parse all of the extra content on the skill pages (even if the other text isn't displayed, it still ends up being processed) would probably make viewing the page more problematic. So instead I opted to create a new subpage with minimal overhead that can be transcluded onto both of the other pages. In most cases, the change will be transparent: even on the skill page, if you click on the edit button that appears for the individual subsections, you are taken directly to this subpage to make the edit.

The one question that I'm still unsure of is whether to move the section header (== Blunt Weapons ==) onto the subpage. The advantage would be that the edit link next to the Blunt Weapons page would work the same way as the subsection edit links -- it would take editors directly to the subpage to make revisions. The problem is, what should then be done with the sentence "This is a list of base Blunt Weapons." that appears on the skill page? OK, the sentence is somewhat minimal, but it could be expanded to be more useful (e.g., add a link to the Base Weapons page into the sentence). And it doesn't need to appear on the Base Weapons page. There are fancy ways to deal with that within the transclusion. But I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

Any feedback before the same treatment is given to the rest of the Base Weapons page? Something needs to be done with all the other weapons, because as it stands, every other weapon-related skill page (Axe, Spear, Short Blade, Long Blade) is filled with errors: all of those pages have incorrect enchantment values. I think it makes more sense to permanently fix the redundancy on all of those pages and change them into transclusions, instead of making a temporary fix by just changing the enchantment values. --Nephele^Talk 11:29, 13 November 2008 (EST)

I should have known there was more than one place... the MW pages seem to be rife with redundant data. The subpage idea is a good one, but do we really need to have a list of weapons on the skill page at all? It's not exhaustive, apart from anything else, as no magic or unique items are there. It's not a problem, but it deserves consideration.

One way around the header problem would be to let the transcluded page take a parameter and display it under the header. It would be a bit hacky but should at least work. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 12:12, 13 November 2008 (EST)

Yep, the thought of just deleting the tables on the skill page also crossed my mind. But the fact that someone fixed an error on the skill page tables is evidence that at least some readers are using the information on the skill pages. It is clearly relevant information on the skill page, the skill page isn't so over-sized that content needs to be removed, and if you are just interested in one class of weapons, it is probably easier to just pull up one shorter page (instead of forcing your browser to load a few hundred icons you don't need). From that point of view, it perhaps even makes sense to change the individual weapon redirects into redirects to the skill pages... but that can be saved for another day ;)

Having a parameter for the intro sentence is a good idea -- better than an ugly #ifeq:{{PAGENAME}} statement, which was my first thought. --Nephele^Talk 12:54, 13 November 2008 (EST)

That's a fair point - in fact more than one. I also prefer the example you're making of Bonemold Armor - apart from anything else, those armor pages have the magic and unique items, which obviates my other worry. The redirects idea... probably also a good one. It'd probably require more discussion but a bot would make short work of the redirects. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 13:12, 13 November 2008 (EST)

Having just re-discovered another whole set of weapon-related pages, I've revised my plans. We also had a set of pages at Morrowind:Blunt Weapons, etc., that previously only included images (no weapon stats). I'd been about to turn those pages into redirects... then realized that they would be better locations for all of the basic information on blunt weapons, and could then be transcluded elsewhere. Thus accomplishing the basic goal of only having one fundamental set of blunt weapon descriptions, but without creating a new set of subpages. I'll work through another set of content moves/merges/updates, then propose deletion on all of the unnecessary subpages. --Nephele^Talk 19:31, 16 November 2008 (EST)